Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited:] a 100-pin STM32L471

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RogerClark
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by RogerClark » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:42 pm

ag123 wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:50 pm
EOMA68 is interesting indeed :D
http://rhombus-tech.net/
did you post this to the correct section?

lkcl
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by lkcl » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:41 pm

RogerClark wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:42 pm

did you post this to the correct section?
he was responding to something i mentioned as background to what i've been doing (part of the reason i started this thread), apologies.

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RogerClark
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by RogerClark » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:52 pm

no worries..

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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by lkcl » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:10 am

ok so westfw has been helping out on the arduino.cc forum (you talked with him a lot on that huuuge maple thread which sparked the creation of stm32duino, roger). it's looking really good. i also (thank you to the person who suggested it) swapped out the the through-hole switch for an SMT one from ALPS. almost ready i feel, to try a prototype!

ChrisMicro
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by ChrisMicro » Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:36 am

to try a prototype!
That sounds interesting.

Meanwhile I was thinking back and forth what features could give the board more "added value" without increasing cost.

I know it is a little bit late, but this could probably considered for the next board:

Wireless connectivity could be useful: The STM32F407 black has a connector for the RFM24 where you can just plug in such a module. For a 3D-Printer user interface a connector for the ESP8266 could be useful.
( BLE ? )
An external EEPROM or FLASH can be useful.

lkcl
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by lkcl » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:10 am

ChrisMicro wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:36 am
to try a prototype!
That sounds interesting.

Meanwhile I was thinking back and forth what features could give the board more "added value" without increasing cost.

I know it is a little bit late, but this could probably considered for the next board:

Wireless connectivity could be useful: The STM32F407 black has a connector for the RFM24 where you can just plug in such a module. For a 3D-Printer user interface a connector for the ESP8266 could be useful.
( BLE ? )
An external EEPROM or FLASH can be useful.
http://esp8266.github.io/Arduino/versio ... digital-io

and a little more besides... all of which looks hellishly complicated for what should be a simple task of dropping on a header with 6 pins: SPI (3), CS (the last remaining free GPIO), GND and VCC. if it was straightforward i'd do it straight away. however it looks like it is an arduino-style project in its own right... and that tends to tell me that, really, i should leave it for now (so that people who *want* to choose a particular WIFI module can do so, and they'd enjoy the fun of that kind of research, exploring and solving a problem).

the other thing is, the ESP8266 has so many variants and is so flexible i don't know where to start... or to guarantee what would actually be available. again, it comes down to standards: if there was a standard i'd do it immediately.

... some of these things are very frustrating on full investigation they're great ideas... like when westfw suggested using an MCU instead of the CH340G. the thing is, the CH340G is about a $0.50 solution for USB-UART, so any MCU including XTAL would have to be.. $0.60 or less to be in the running.

*sigh* :)

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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by lkcl » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:29 am

okaaay so a couple of things, i discovered by accident two processors, one the STM32F070 and the other the STM32L49x range.

the TSSOP-20 STM32F070 is as cheap as nuts: BOM-wise it's on the level of the CH340G + 12mhz XTAL + SOT23-5 inverter buffer... so out that all goes and in comes the STM32F070, yay!
Untitled1.jpg
Untitled1.jpg (38.2 KiB) Viewed 131 times
so, i've dropped on some boot/reset pinheaders for it, then wired two GPIOs to the L471's BOOT0 and RESETN, then connected up the USART TX/RX *and* the SPI interfaces - including an NSS/CS line to *THE* last GPIO on the L471... :) . the L471 can't actually do SPI-bootloading/flashing, but at least the F070's SPI interface can go up to 18mbits/sec and its USB interface up to 12mbits/sec, so there's the possibility of fast(er) communication off-chip, there, with a little bit of reprogramming of the F070. it's all quite exciting!


the second is the L49x range, which looks absolutely superb, i don't know how it wasn't noticed before (is it that new?)... seems to be a "corrected" version of the STM32L471 if that makes any sense. only problem is: it's far too new, the suppliers on taobao who have it have it at *double* the cost of ST's distributors. also even if using it, some sort of "boot management and flashing" MCU / arrangement is still needed.

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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by david.prentice » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:46 am

Surely you can compare different STM32 chips by buying the relevant Nucleo or Discovery boards.

You are either going to aim for lowest cost or best performance.
In practice, you settle on a reasonable compromise.

Personally, I like to have Arduino headers and accessible male pins. The Nucleo-64 and Nucleo-144 designs are excellent for experiments, development. The Nucleo boards are cheap and widely available. You will find it difficult to compete on price, support or convenience.

If you want a Due-compatible there are several choices for target MCU. I don't think the Chinese Due clones have enormous sales. An STM32 version would be even less. You need large sales to reduce the manufacturing cost to get anywhere near Due-clone or genuine Nucleo.

David.

lkcl
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by lkcl » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:40 pm

david.prentice wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:46 am
Surely you can compare different STM32 chips by buying the relevant Nucleo or Discovery boards.
nice idea, too slow though. i'm based in Taiwan: i'd had to wait several weeks for the boards to arrive from overseas, in batches, then get to programming them. we did it a different way: just trusted the datasheets and online specs.
You are either going to aim for lowest cost or best performance.
In practice, you settle on a reasonable compromise.
well, we did quite an evaluation of the STML471 (thank you to everyone here early in this discussion), looking for something that had comparable performance and features to the Due, but also was commonly available enough to be under half the price of a Due (in Shenzhen pricing, not Western pricing). the STML49x for example is *double* ST's price (!).
Personally, I like to have Arduino headers and accessible male pins. The Nucleo-64 and Nucleo-144 designs are excellent for experiments, development. The Nucleo boards are cheap and widely available. You will find it difficult to compete on price, support or convenience.

If you want a Due-compatible there are several choices for target MCU. I don't think the Chinese Due clones have enormous sales.
no they don't. there's a number of possible explanations for that.
An STM32 version would be even less.
we'll see. i'm going to take some prototypes along to Shenzhen Maker Faire 2017, which is on the 10th-12th november, see how people react.
You need large sales to reduce the manufacturing cost to get anywhere near Due-clone or genuine Nucleo.
i'm happy to find out - the chinese holiday ended recently so i can ask my friend who runs a factory to make some quotes. the main reason the due clones are so high-priced is: Atmel don't bother to recognise the realities of selling in Shenzhen (their prices are non-competitive, not adjusted to reflect reality of China markets), plus the actual board design and component selection is not optimised for China. it's also so heavily populated with components compared to the Mega that they had to go to 0402 component sizes. the only reason it sells *at all* is because of the 3D printing and the foreign westerner Arduino market.

thanks to ST's distribution model being slightly different, the STML471 on the other hand appears to be available at half the price. i also based it deliberately on the Mega, which has a much lower component count as well as larger component sizes (0805 minimum).

it's just one of those things, david, where i want to find out, you know what i mean? i hear you... and i *stilL* want to actually go ahead and find out. this is unknown territory, but the circumstances are slightly different: i'm actually *right here* in Taiwan, as opposed to being in the USA or Europe, so i can go over to SZ / HK, i can get boards made up and have them shipped to me in 24-72 hours without import tax, as opposed to 7 days at a cost of $USD 100 for Fedex/DHL or 28 days Postal Service plus customs delays, tax, tax-on-tax, tax-on-shipping, tax-on-tax-on... you get the picture :)

ChrisMicro
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Re: Is anyone interested in helping to make an Arduino Due which uses [edited: a 100-pin STM32L471]

Post by ChrisMicro » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:04 am

Relating the ESP8266 modules.
I think this ones would have been the best to be used:
www.ebay.de/itm/ESP8266-ESP-01-Version- ... DPL.BANDIT

- low pin count
- cheap

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